When I was younger I always hated that Pocahontas didn't leave with John Smith. I was such a fan of the "happily ever after" endings, that was the point of the fairy tale to me. (Then I got older, found out the truth about Pocahontas and Smith and was upset they portrayed them together in the first place.)
I wish that we would have seen Ariel confronting her dad at the end after all the drama and really giving a deeper apology. That would have been really sweet, and would have added to Ariel's character in a better way.
^^ so agree with shanyuisboss! I always found that bit lacking. Also, i sincerely wished for weddings for Aurora and Belle. Every time i see those movies again, I keep wishing it all the more...
Kinda. I don't care for how Pocahontas ended, though I do understand why it ended the way it did, and I think it does make Pocahontas stronger....but still. And also kinda Cinderella. I wished we've seen the Prince see Cinderella in her maid outfit, decide it doesn't matter to him, then the wedding happens. The way it rushes from the shoe being put on Cinderella's foot then right to the wedding, I don't like that. I think that's it.
@Sparklefairy375; I'm talking just about the first movie. I'm not counting the third movie because there was no plans for a sequel(s) until long after Walt died.
I guess I was okay with Ariel saying "I'm sorry. Daddy, I didn't mean to---" without the LONG effusive apology everybody here seems to want from her. Disney princesses don't give long apologies. I've been around a long time...and they just do not give them. Belle does not give a long apology to the beast for running away after she went into the west wing. Jasmine does not apologize to her father for running off. Pocahontas doesn't give a long apology to John Smith for getting him in trouble. Tiana does not apologize to anybody in her movie, even though she is as verbally abusive as she can be when she is upset. Merida's apology was the length of Ariel's, and nobody even makes a quibble about that!!!!! And Elsa never says she is sorry to Anna for having shoved ice in her chest. Elsa's apology is "implied," it's never spoken out loud--- it's the hug that Elsa gives Anna to thaw her out.... BUT... it's easy to pick on Ariel around here. TYPICAL.
I wanted an adventure... and Brave was the total opposite of that. It was a mother-daughter squabble-mini-war over who-has-the-power-to-make-the-other-do-her-own-bidding. I found that the movie's premise kind of sucked initially.
I didn't like the ending to TPATF. I thought Charlotte was a really nice character, and she got the absolute shaft...while Tiana GOT EVERYTHING in sight after being so nasty to nearly everybody in the movie. I would have liked to see Tiana not exactly get everything she wanted. So maybe Tiana got the restaurant, but not Naveen's love. Or she got Naveen's love, but not the restaurant. I just don't like to "heap rewards" on mean characters. I'd rather see them not get all that they want, just like what happens in real life. The world does not owe you anything.
Pocahontas had a "real life" ending. That's why most people on Fanpop and off of Fanpop don't seem to love that movie as much. But it is in my top 5 DP movies.
And...uh...everybody oohing and ahhing over Elsa literally made me furious. I will forever see Elsa as a coward, because that was "exactly how she acted" in the movie. And that was what upset me most about Frozen. I saw everybody praising a cowardly character.
Some other movies spring to mind...but they aren't necessarily DP movies. So I won't mention them.
wavesurf: I must respectfully disagree with you on just a couple things though I agree with you on most others. I just recently re-watched Princess and the Frog and Brave and I must say that I believe Merida apologizes longer and more fully than any princess I've ever seen. She doesn't just say "I'm sorry" but she admits it was her fault and that she was wrong. That to me, is a real and sincere genuine apology. When someone doesn't just say sorry but actually admits "I was wrong/I messed up/I caused a problem." Ariel didn't really apologize until she was being taken by Ursula and Triton stopped them. Then she was like "Oh daddy, sorry, *help me!*" more than anything. Pocahontas does apologize to John Smith but he tells her "It's alright. I've gotten out of worse predicaments before." He doesn't say "predicaments" but it's basically something like that. She does apologize and cry to him but he tells her not to. It's a very powerful and emotional scene and I do remember Pocahontas' genuine sincerity when she does come to John. Also actions speak louder than words to me and she didn't just say to him "This is all my fault" which is the most sincere and respectful apology but then her actions backed it up when she risked her life to save him.
Tiana is so weird to me. I could never understand why you thought she was so horrible until I re-watched the film and let me just say that if people complain about Frozen then I don't understand how they don't complain about Princess and the Frog. You can let me know if you agree or disagree but I literally re-watched it multiple times and I found that Tiana is very pleasant and humble as a human but then for some reason, once she becomes a frog (and right before becoming a frog when talking to Naveen) she becomes really rude and impatient. It's like she becomes a completely different person. When she was human, she didn't hardly talk back to anyone or talk down to anyone. She gave helpful advice and had good customer service skills with her customers at the restaurant and was a stellar waitress. However, once she meets Naveen she becomes incredibly impulsive and somewhat violent. When she becomes a frog, she gets downright mean and nasty several times without being provoked. I think the writers really screwed up making her so nice as a human and mean as a frog because Naveen's personality didn't seem to change at all just by becoming a frog. I think it was bad, confused writing about Tiana. Also later in the film as a frog, she sort of flip flops back and forth between the better person she started off as and the meaner person she has become over the course of the film. I think they wanted to make her more mean as a human so that love cured/changed that for her but for whatever reason didn't start writing her that mean until the frog scenes which just made things confusing. In the end, Tiana did get both Naveen and the restaurant but she had actually already earned the restaurant in the beginning if it had not been for whoever it was (presumably Facilier though NEVER explained why) buying the restaurant out from under her nose. I think Naveen's love was supposed to transform her and him both but I think they did a better job with Naveen's transformation than Tiana's as she had no distinct beginning and end personality.
I agree with you about other DPs not apologizing though. Belle doesn't apologize to Beast but she does thank him for saving her life, is the first to fold in their stubborn argument and tends to his wounds so in that act I must say that actions speak louder than words. Jasmine doesn't apologize for running away because she got caught and never wanted to come back, in my opinion, though I do believe she greatly owed her father an apology. Problem is you cant expect someone to apologize for something they don't actually feel bad for and she is too self-absorbed to care about the worry that she put her father through. I completely agree with you about Elsa not giving any kind of real apology as an adult though again, as a child she was completely and emphatically apologetic so that could have to do with how her parents changed everything. (I think they were horrible parents.)
I found Brave to be one of the absolute most boring Disney Princess films as I hated having to get through all that you described, the power bidding war between mother and daughter, before I could get to the better parts of the film. I think the message in Brave was good overall but horrible for children. Children are not mature enough to discern between what they feel is right and what actually is right and my biggest beef with Brave is that I think it sends a rebellious message to children against their parents which only brings about tension in the home. Adults and perhaps teenagers will understand the nuances of "arranged marriage" and that it takes place in a different time and place but I think the overall message that you should "always be so adamant in your beliefs against anyone, even parents" at such a young age of confusion, immaturity, transformation, learning and growth is just harmful. I cant tell you how often it is that kids grow up, finally start a family and have children of their own and then go back to the parents because they realize "Wow I thought you were so wrong and harsh growing up but now that I'm older and have kids, I realize you weren't so wrong and you were just doing everything you could so I can be successful like I am and pass that onto my children." Most people will never experience something quite as extreme as "forced arranged marriage" like Merida so they'll get rebellious over not eating their vegetables or having a curfew or something else very silly because of how they saw Merida being so "championed" for being "rebellious" instead of seeing her as making a necessary change based on morals not just self-centered desires.
I don't think Charlotte was that nice but I do think she would've been far nicer had she not been so over-spoiled by her father growing up. Unfortunately her father spoiled her past the point of social decency which is why she's so rude to everyone, especially her own father the most despite him giving her everything she's ever wanted to the best of his ability. But hey, when you spoil someone growing up, you make them ungrateful and often rude, because they don't understand what it means and takes to put all of the hard work in to earn something so I blame her father more than I blame her. Poor guy didn't have Charlotte's mother around to help balance that out.
I strongly disagree with you about Pocahontas having a "real life" ending because in "real life" she did get on a boat and go to England. So it's actually the opposite of "real life" since she was a "real life" person and they got her "real life" ending wrong. That was a Disney fail. I don't agree with you that people who don't like that movie don't like it because of it's "real ending" but rather it's "fake forced ending".
I see Elsa as a coward too but I largely blame her father. The trolls told them she should learn how to control her powers but her father told her to conceal them instead. She was just being a good girl and listening to her father who she should be able to trust but he let her down by giving her horrible advice. Then he died and left her alone with nothing but his horrible advice.
If actions speak louder than words...as you claim is in Belle's case, and in Pocahontas's case, and in Merida's case, and is in the case of multiple others...then how was Ariel NOT SHOWING her repentant nature in battling Ursula? Ariel was duped by Ursula, and when she found out that her father was unable to set her free and literally took take her place, instead--- Ariel was shocked to her core. Ursula had never told Ariel that anybody could replace her on the contract if she failed, did she? So Ariel was both appalled and sorry. It's all over her face!!!!! I stand by the fact that Ariel DID SHOW her "full repentance" for what she had done in her actions!!!!! She fought off Ursula, by giving Ursula something "to shoot at," saved Eric again ( and told him to sincerely leave), and basically served as "a distraction" for Ursula because the sea witch was intent on killing her, not her father. Ariel accepted that she was going to die for her bad decision. Ursula was definitely shooting mere inches away from Ariel. How many Disney princesses are prepared to die for a bad decision they've made? Oh, let me think.... Oh... Of the twelve named DPs, only Mulan and Poca are the only other two "who agree to die for a decision they made" that got themselves and others in trouble. I see a similarity between all three of those gals. That's why they are all in my top 5.
I think a lot of princesses have less characterization than Ariel. Belle has some, sure, but she is not the main character in B and the B. The Beast is the main protagonist of the film, not Belle. Belle is like Jasmine. Both are bystanders to the plot, and they are not exactly active heroines. Mulan drives the plot in her movie. Ariel drives the plot in her movie. Poca drives some of the plot in her movie. Ariel made choices, and repented of them by having to face Ursula. All of Ariel's actions in the last battle showed just how sorry she was for "ever" having decided to want to be a human! Ariel may have loved Eric a good deal, but-- it had blown up in her face! So Ariel "chose" to remain a mermaid forever at the end. That's why we see her sitting on a rock, melancholy, and mulling over her wrongs. She's going to stay a mermaid. It's Triton who thinks he sees "maturity" in Ariel...Triton sees that Ariel was willing to die to save Atlantica and everyone who lived in their kingdom... This is something I see, too. But that's because I watch Ariel's facial expressions, and her actions, not just the occasional words that are coming out of her mouth all of the time.
As for the other things you've said, I don't know if I agree or disagree on them completely. I did dislike the screenwriting for TPATF. I disliked the ending where Tiana wins the "entire jackpot" in particular. The screenwriting is why Tiana is so uncharacteristically nasty in my opinion. Spoiled as she may be, I do find Lottie "to come off as way sweeter overall" than Tiana is.
I don't know that Merida is teaching anybody "to be rebellious." But I do prefer Ariel's version of trading in her fin for legs and "being away" from her abusive father, to Merida "actively feeding a cake to her mother to change her mother's mental thought patterns." At least, when Ariel disagreed with Triton, she simply distanced herself. Ariel did not attempt to change her father's mind for him.
Pocahontas never ended up with John Smith in the Disney movie, did she? That was BECAUSE Poca did not marry John Smith in real life. Disney DID KEEP the historical accuracy right, even if they "threw in a romance that was never possible." Poca and John knew each other as friends, perhaps. And even in the Disney version, as was in real life-- Poca marries John Rolfe. I fail to see how that ending is bad. That ending is "the real ending" to the real story.
Somewhere among my overriding disgust for Frozen, I feel pity for Elsa and Anna, because their parents and the trolls made everything in their lives worse for them. Literally.
But I do heartily disagree that Ariel was not sorry for what she had done, and does not "give enough of a LONG apology" as everyone else claims around here. I don't think this IS NECESSARY, because the context of the very film itself shows the audience that Ariel was repentant, just as Poca is, and Mulan is. The movie shows me an Ariel that is fighting to save Atlantica, and it also shows me a mermaid who was prepared to die for her mistakes and give up her dreams forever.
Night_Hunter: I don't think all of Brave was boring, just the first 1/3 or 1/2 or so. It picked up for me after that but it was mainly the beginning that I found to be super boring. The parts where Merida and her mom were fighting most of the time.
wavesurf: Well first of all let me just clarify that I would not include Merida in my "actions speak louder than words" argument, I just thought her apology was verbally the most respectful and genuine and not light-hearted or forced. I would say the actions speak louder in words with Belle and Pocahontas though. Just so you understand where I am coming from. :)
That being said, I don't think Ariel's actions in battling Ursula were super commendable similar to the fact that I don't think Merida's actions in battling Mor'du were super commendable either. Sure, it's cool and makes for a great film but I don't find it super commendable when someone forces a problem but then gets involved in the solution as I find that to be more basic, decent and proper since they caused the problem. I don't see Ariel or Merida showing their repentant nature in battling their villains because to me, that's just plain survivor skills since both those DPs are being attacked and having their lives threatened by the villains. They're in an "eat or be eaten" situation which to me, doesn't have much to do with repentance.
I think arguments made for Ariel and Merida are often just bandaged excuses for problems that they brought onto themselves and others. Sure, Ariel didn't know her father might be taken in her place and Merida didn't know the spell would turn her mother into a bear but they both made deals with the devil in order to cheat life and manipulate those around them. That's why I don't find it to be super commendable that they then change their mind/attitudes/behavior once other people get involved. I think it is somewhat commendable as they could always cower away but I just don't find it to be anything extraordinary or great about them, just decent and proper change. An act of maturity, if you will.
I'm sorry but I don't consider a "face" to be an action. A "face" to me does far less than even words. To me, a "face" is a self-centered expression about something wihtout actually doing anything about it so I wouldn't see that as an act of repentance at all. She's an emotional girl so I'd expect her to make faces all the time, like she does. I'd hope she would mature and grow out of that at some point though. She was kind of a distraction for Ursula, I guess, but again she was facing the problem that she invited.
"How many Disney princesses are prepared to die for a bad decision they've made?" Well... I think that's a bit subjective depending on how you see things. Belle was willing to die for the decision of taking her father's place. She had no idea what the Beast would do to her. I personally think it was a bad decision of hers to take her father's place because I believe she should've went back to town for help since she now knew the route and location of her father. That would've killed the film though. :) I agree with you about Pocahontas and Mulan though. I know you don't like Tiana but she was prepared to die with Dr. Facilier as she knew he was attacking her to kill yet she then defeated him. She had made the bad mistake of pretending to be a princess and kissing the frog. Then she was willing to pay for it similar to Ariel, Pocahontas, Mulan and Merida as well. Same with Anna except far more sacrificial because she didn't really make as much of a mistake as the other DPs. She did feel guilty and feel at fault for making Elsa run away though and did sacrifice her life for Elsa so I think she deserves to be in that group even more so than all of the others.
Perhaps you can explain to me what you mean by characterization so that I might be able to fully understand what your point is? I don't want to get confused and I want to show you the respect of staying relevant and accurate. I'm not quite sure exactly what you mean by characterization so I'd like to know directly from you, if you don't mind.
I dont really think I agree with you that Ariel has so much more characterization, I think she's just more outspoken and vocal about all of her feelings and thoughts than the others. I dont believe a character has to be the main character for proper characterization at all. I would definitely not call Belle "inactive" since she is very active in her film. She goes on her own accord to find her father when his horse comes back with out him, she proactively sacrifices herself for her father's place on her own accord, she runs away on her own accord, seeks out and rescues her father on her own accord and even goes back to save the beast on her own accord. I also don't agree with you at all that the "beast is the protagonist of the film, not Belle". I'm not quite sure how you see it that way? We hear the legend of the beast first but the first character we meet is Belle. We follow her on a normal day, hear about her worries and dreams to her father and follow her journey to rescue the father. We see more aspects of Belle's life than the Beast or anyone else's. I'm shocked that you could see her as the same as Jasmine when Belle was far more central in her film than Jasmine was. Belle drives the plot in her movie too, there are just a great usage of other characters as well. I think that movie has great characterization for all of it's characters and not just the DP or DP & Prince Charming. I think that's part of why that film is so commendable and classic already. I would make the same argument with Pocahontas. I don't think side characters take away as much from the DPs as it seems to me that you do think that way but correct me if I am misunderstanding you.
I dont believe Ariel "chose" to remain a mermaid at all, I think she just "settled" for it after what happened to Ursula. I dont find that action to be super commendable at all. She played with fire, got burnt and didnt want to play with matches again. I more commend her father for changing her in that moment and making her dreams come true. I also don't think Triton saw "maturity" in Ariel but rather "true love". I think he realized that they loved each other and since he knew what it was like to lose his love, Queen Athena, he couldn't bare to do that to his daughter so he changed her so she could embrace her true love in Eric.
I don't find Charlotte to come off overall sweeter than Tiana because she is far too rude, self-absorbed and inconsiderate. She constantly cuts people off, ignores them when they are talking, is very aggressive with others, etc. The way she treated that guy at the dance was just horrible. She led him on by telling him "later" and then crushed him nastily by saying "later really meant not ever". I thought that was incredibly cold and ugly behavior. I also find her to be very superficial, prejudice and shallow. She treated that guy like that because he wasn't a prince and treated who she thought the prince was, like a king, because she just wanted his title. Although Tiana had her flaws, at least she didn't think she was better than everyone else like Charlotte had grown up to believe. Yes Tiana believed she was better than Naveen but nobody else. I think spoiled is just one of many of Charlotte's very negative and anti-social traits.
I think Merida does teach small children that it's "cool to be rebellious". I think her image portrays that in every way. I dont think small children are mature enough to pick up on the nuances as I mentioned before. I think those parents who show Brave to their young children will ultimately have problems with their children and later in life have to explain why they aren't changing and folding like Elinor did.
Ariel's father was not abusive at all in any way shape or form. I say that sternly because I have actualy been abused by parents and I find it cruel and extreme to label Triton that way. He was not even 1% abusive. He has his faults but I strongly disagree with "abusive". He doesnt abuse her at all. She has ultimate freedom to do what she wants. He never hits her, neglects her, starves her, severely punishes her and hardly limits her or forces her into things she doesn't like/want. Destroying her grotto might have been extreme or overdone but it was NOT abusive at all. I also think Ariel did try to speak to her father more than Merida tried to speak to her mother but Triton lost his only beloved wife to humans and wasn't as open to hearing that they were "good" people. Triton is very similar to Pocahontas' dad Chief Powhatan who you must find to be ultra-abusive if you think Triton is abusive. Chief Powhatan was going to force his daughter to marry a man who actually would've physically abused Pocahontas if she ever upset him whereas Triton wasn't trying to force Ariel into anything. (Come to think of it, you must also find Jasmine's dad, Mulan's parents and Merida's parents to all be abusive as well.) I'm SHOCKED that you would go as far as to label someone like Triton as abusive, truly. I don't mean to disrespect you, I am just honestly shocked and as someone who has been abused, I think you are using extreme language that is not accurate. That's just my opinion and I hope you don't find it disrespectful because I don't mean it that way. My words might just sound more passionate because it's more relatable and real to me than most other people. The "abusive" parents in the DPs are: Evil Queen Grimhilde, Lady Tremaine & Mother Gothel. Only.
Disney did not keep the historical accuracy right, I'm sorry. Pocahontas never dated Smith in the first place so Disney was wrong from the very get-go. Keeping historical accuracy would have been to not have them date in the first place. When Pocahontas saw John Smith in England, she told him that he was like a "father" to her. They never once dated, she saw him as a wise elder. It's really gross that Disney depicted them otherwise, actually. Also in the Disney version of Pocahontas 2, not the original which is a big difference to majority of Disney friends, they still didn't get the "real ending" right because John Rolfe left to England from Virginia with Pocahontas, not the other way around. They didn't meet in England so the sequel was historically inaccurate throughout as well.
I dont believe the trolls made everything in Elsa & Anna's lives worse at all because they saved Anna as a child. I only belive the parents royally screwed them.
I never said Ariel was not sorry for what she had done so I'm not quite sure where you are getting that from? I only said that I would've loved a more heart-felt apology from her to her father for all the trouble she caused since the only apology we did see was the "help me" one when Ursula captured her and Triton had been alerted by Sebastian. I also don't know what you mean about "everyone else claims around here" that Ariel didn't "give enough of a long apology". Not sure where you are reading that from? What I read and agreed with here was "I wish that we would have seen Ariel confronting her dad at the end after all the drama and really giving a deeper apology. That would have been really sweet, and would have added to Ariel's character in a better way." I don't really see that as "everyone around here claiming her apology wasn't long enough".
Well, sadly, I disagree with pretty much all of your points. You don't have to be physically abusive and neglectful to STILL BE ABUSIVE. Triton is "verbally abusive," and that counts, also, in my book. Try this link, because Triton definitely fits the verbal abuser description: link. He loses his temper and yells at his daughter every single time they are in the same room because he doesn't want to engage with anything his daughter has to say. This becomes aggravated after he DESTROYS everything Ariel finds precious ON PURPOSE. Triton crushes his daughter's spirit. That is bad form and IS ABUSIVE.
Pohawatan never yells at Pocahontas. Fa Zhou yells at Mulan one time, but never destroys anything she holds dear. Grimhilde, Lady Tremaine, and Mother Gothel are abusive as well, just like King Triton. They ALL demean their victims through using their tongues and their actions.
Okay. Since you don't believe "nonverbal cues" matter at all, as a sign of repentance...then I have nothing else to say, because I thoroughly disagree with that.
Belle doesn't do enough in her own movie. First she's snobby because she feels "isolated by the town" and so she "hides out with her books" and simply WAITS for her dad's invention to work--- hoping that that will give her a new life. I wish Belle went after that new life herself. She just complains about not having anything exciting to do. Then when she takes her father's place in the beast's castle, she starts whining again--- about how it's all unfair---- a "choice" she made, mind you! No one forced her to take her father's place as prisoner. She could have just left her father to die. But then she turns into a milk-toast, right after she has made the choice to stay with the beast. I didn't think highly of her for that!
Then she pokes around in the West Wing right after the Beast expressly tells her not to. And because she's caught "red-handed" she flees into the woods, where--- if the beast had not followed---- she would most certainly have been mauled to death by wolves.
Let's also not forget that Belle IS THE REASON that Gaston EVEN KNOWS about the beast and the castle at all... because she goes around waving that mirror in front of everybody. Sure, they have her father. But Maurice's story about the Beast and the castle wasn't being taken seriously by Gaston and the townspeople. No, Belle had to make them BELIEVE it was true, and when they did--- all it did was foment a riot and led to them overrunning the beast's castle... which of course, Belle is ENTIRELY responsible for because of her BIG MOUTH. Just like in Ariel's case, when Eric comes to the rescue---- the beast also comes to the rescue, and "corrects" the problem Belle BROUGHT TO HIM. So I do FAIL to see how Belle is a better character than Ariel... because she made a gargantuan mistake, just like Ariel did. However, in each case, the princes are able to handle and diffuse the bad situations started by each princess.
I'm not going to rehearse my points again, since you just disagreed with all of them.
As for this--> "I wish that we would have seen Ariel confronting her dad at the end after all the drama and really giving a deeper apology. That would have been really sweet, and would have added to Ariel's character in a better way." Oh, really? Ariel does not have to give a longer, more heart-felt, deeper apology to her father, her FORMER ABUSER. Would you apologize to a person who abused you??? I'd venture...NO. So that's ridiculous!! BOTH father and daughter are at fault for creating the dynamic that Ursula just exploited. It is not all Ariel's fault for what occurred!!!!! But people around here claiming Ariel needs to keep on apologizing to her dad--- are acting like Ariel single-handedly created the problem. Which is a lie. Triton is just as responsible for what happened as Ariel is. Belle is just as responsible for bringing "the mob" to the castle, as the beast is for "his bad temper."
It's not that I feel insulted, it's just that I feel DISGUSTED when people accept the EXACT SAME FLAWS in other princesses that they continually point out and condemn in Ariel. Ariel created a problem? Well, guess what. So did Belle and lots of other girls in the lineup. Stop picking on Ariel and demanding more of an apology from her. That's hypocritical ( because longer, heartfelt deeper apologies are not being equally demanded from all the other princesses. The other princesses did wrong, just as much as Ariel did. They deserve to be GIVING LONGER, HEARTFELT, DEEPER APOLOGIES to the characters that they offended). But they aren't doing that, are they? Nope. And all that is happening is the same criticism is being leveled at only one princess-- Ariel. Well, I HEREBY DIRECT IT and DEMAND A LONGER, HEARTFELT, DEEPER APOLOGY from Belle, from Jasmine, from Pocahontas, from Mulan, from Tiana, from Rapunzel, from Merida, from Anna, and from Elsa for CAUSING all of the respective problems in their movies!! I WANT an apology from all of them!!!! (Too bad, haha, I won't get it). I greatly dislike hypocrisy. And this is definitely what this is.
it never happened to me. i never had a DP movie that had an ending that did not have an ending. it only happened in one of my old favorites of little house on the prairie. that was the only time, but it was never in DP movies at all. i never saw any with an ending that needed more at the end. all of the endings were happy. none needed to be changed. i think they all were just perfect. no need for a change.
Beauty and the Beast's ending is pretty dumb... The curse that turns him into a beast doesn't really make sense. Like, why does it bring him back to life??? There's literally no reason for it to do that. I mean, it's obvious why they added it in - in the original fairytale, the Beast "dies" in front of a rose bush before turning human. But there's no reason for that in Disney's version. Eh, whatever.
I also don't like parts of the ending of Frozen, though that's more to do with the fact that I don't like entire chunks of Frozen throughout the entire thing.
wavesurf: Well I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree then. :)
I find it both a shame and privilege that you would be able to think that getting yelled at for something you repeatedly did wrong and being told repeatedly not to do could ever be considered as abuse in any form. I hope you realize that would never stand in a court of law. Also I actually was verbally abused and like I said, Triton isn't even 1% abusive. It's a luxury if you think he's abusive, not a reality. Let me tell you what real verbal abuse is. Real verbal abuse is something like this: "Your mother is a whore so you're going to grow up and be a whore just like her." THAT is verbal abuse. Something that is A) extreme and B) undeserved and Triton doesn't qualify for either of those things, sorry. :) Losing your temper because your daughter literally sneaks out to a dangerous place where your wife had been killed before isn't considered "abusive" in the real world. It's considered appropriate. He doesn't yell at his daughter whenever they're in the same room, you should re-watch the film since you don't seem to remember it very well. He only yells at her because she ditched the ceremony that was in front of the entire kingdom, then went to the surface after being told not to, then ran away again to the surface after being told not to and making contact with a human after being told the same day not to. Yes, he does break her things on purpose because she kept disobeying him on purpose AND he just found out that she had been secretly breaking his rules and collecting all of those things against his permission and without his knowledge. If you stole things from a store, a good parent makes you take them back or if you have weapons, good parents get rid of them. This is what he was doing. Trying to be a responsible parent and he considered these to be "bad things" which she really did get behind his back and while it may have been an extreme reaction, it was literally no where even near the parking lot of abusive. It may have been "bad form" as you say, that is debatable since she collected those items without permission but his reaction was certainly not abusive in any form, shape, way or manner etc.
"Powhatan never yells at Pocahontas." No, he was just going to sell her to a warrior for marriage whether Pocahontas said yes or no. Also that warrior would have permission to actually be physically abusive to Pocahontas if she ever did anything he didn't like but her father was going to make her marry him anyways. Interesting you consider that to not be as bad as being yelled at for something you did wrong. "Fa Zhou yells at Mulan one time, but never destroys anything she holds dear." I'm sorry but what is your point here? Mulan doesn't repeatedly disobey her father like Ariel so it's not the same. He still yelled at her just for showing concern about his decisions. I don't understand your distinction. Honestly, I'm not insulted by the fact that you think Grimhilde, Lady Tremaine, and Mother Gothel are "just as abusive as King Triton" but I do think overall that your opinion is insulting. I would've traded my abusive parents in for Triton any day because he is so loving, caring, protective and devoted. Triton doesn't demean anyone. You should really look up abuse and all of those things because you're just not accurate in this issue at all.
I never once said "I don't believe in 'nonverbal cues' at all" so I'm not sure where you got that from?
I understand that's your opinion about Belle and obviously I completely disagree. She talked to her father about feeling misunderstood and it's interesting that you can blame that on her. It's also interesting that you would condone her for being so loyal to her father and not wanting to leave him on his own. While I understand that you feel maybe she should've left him alone to die, I can understand why she didn't do more to leave him and was hoping he'd find success so she wouldn't have to worry about him the rest of her life. I don't remember her ever once complaining about "not having anything exciting to do", I just remember her having bigger dreams of knowledge and travel than the rest of her town which most likely comes from her father and I hope you remember she's not from that town anyways and doesn't share their mindsets and values. Also she wasn't whining about her choice being unfair, perhaps you should re-watch this film as well? She complains it's not fair that she "didn't get a chance to say goodbye" after she offered to take his place which is understandable to me. :) I agree she should not have gone into the West Wing when she wasn't supposed to and she never apologized for it. I also agree that if Beast hadn't saved her life, she'd be dead. I didn't forget that Gaston found out about the beast by Maurice and not Belle but I think you did. :) Maurice went into the tavern after Belle took his place and spoke of "the beast" which triggered Gaston's evil plans. Then he was going to lock up Maurice in an asylum where they'd do experiments on him etc. and Belle didn't want to stand for that. The reason Belle showed Gaston what the beast looked like, was to prove that her father wasn't insane. Unless of course you believe Belle should've given into the peer pressure and married Gaston instead? Also Belle doesn't have a big mouth but I think you either forgot many details or misinterpreted that entire sequence of events. :)
I'm not going to tell you how you should rank Ariel and Belle against each other as that is completely your choice. If you don't see why many people see Belle as more virtuous or having stronger moral character than Ariel then perhaps you should re-watch both films to re-familiarize yourself with the characters and events. :)
I wish I could do a better job at helping you understand that I think you are taking the Ariel apology completely out of context. I already tried to tell you that it was just something that would've been nice but you don't seem to understand. Would I apologize to a person who abused me? No. Would I apologize to Triton for repeatedly disobeying him, running away and putting him in a predicament with his arch nemesis Ursula? You bet I would, absolutely, because he deserves it. Triton is nowhere near responsible for what happened as Ariel. Belle is also not as responsible for bringing the mob as Beast's bad temper and I sincerely see no connection there. I'm sorry that you feel like someone is picking on Ariel or demanding more of an apology from her and I honestly don't know why you feel that way or where you are getting that from as I already tried to explain the context to you. I hope you realize that you are the only person I see here demanding any apology from anyone.
@wavesurf Wow, you are just a despicable human being. I applaud laylastedford for trying to be patient with you and try to understand where you are coming from, but I'm not going to humor you with this, "Respecting opinions" sharade that people put on for you, despite that you don't deserve it.
You are a mean spirited person who refuses to respect others opinions. You expect others to here you out on your childish rants, but you show nobody the slightest hint of respect for their opinions. Not to mention that you do so in such a condescending way, and you consistently shove your opinions in others faces. It's disgusting watching you, a grown adult, throw temper tantrums when people don't agree with your opinions. Time after time calling people, "hypocrites" is something I can only imagine a five year old doing. Do you even know what the definition of hypocrite is? It's not hypocritical to not see Ariel in the same way that you do, and you make your own points invalid because Ariel is not in the slightest bit unpopular. Everyone adores Ariel, but as soon as someone has a complaint about her character you flip shit.
By the way, SO much that you have said is bullshit that you believe out of biased towards your favorite DP's. Like constantly putting down other DP's to make Ariel seem like the queen of the DP lineup, for instance. If you think putting down other DP's and basically saying that, "Ariel shouldn't ever be critisized because _ DP does _" makes your arguments stronger, you should rethink all your comments.
I don't want to have a discussion about this with you @wavesurf because I already know the formula for what your reply is going to look like, and I'm just telling you from an outsiders perspective that your personality from these rants of yours make you come off as insufferable.
Mulan. I don't want Mulan to end up with Shang. Given the Mulan cast we have, I wouldn't be particularly happy about any romance in this movie because there is no likeable males in Mulan in my opinion. I wouldn't adore any couple Mulan and canon male character. But I definetely prefer any of Mulan's army friend as her love interest over Shang(not that I love any of three, not all, Chien-Po is nice but not really special, Ling and Yao are unpleasant but all three of them are more likeable than Shang to me). I understand that Shang is the only prince-like male in the movie,that Disney was too conservative in 90s( and remains so even now) to match Mulan with any other canon male... But still I don't like this couple.
Only Pocahontas. And agree with what laylastepford said. The other movies ending are fits well.
I wanted an adventure... and Brave was the total opposite of that. It was a mother-daughter squabble-mini-war over who-has-the-power-to-make-the-other-do-her
I didn't like the ending to TPATF. I thought Charlotte was a really nice character, and she got the absolute shaft...while Tiana GOT EVERYTHING in sight after being so nasty to nearly everybody in the movie. I would have liked to see Tiana not exactly get everything she wanted. So maybe Tiana got the restaurant, but not Naveen's love. Or she got Naveen's love, but not the restaurant. I just don't like to "heap rewards" on mean characters. I'd rather see them not get all that they want, just like what happens in real life. The world does not owe you anything.
Pocahontas had a "real life" ending. That's why most people on Fanpop and off of Fanpop don't seem to love that movie as much. But it is in my top 5 DP movies.
And...uh...everybody oohing and ahhing over Elsa literally made me furious. I will forever see Elsa as a coward, because that was "exactly how she acted" in the movie. And that was what upset me most about Frozen. I saw everybody praising a cowardly character.
Some other movies spring to mind...but they aren't necessarily DP movies. So I won't mention them.
Tiana is so weird to me. I could never understand why you thought she was so horrible until I re-watched the film and let me just say that if people complain about Frozen then I don't understand how they don't complain about Princess and the Frog. You can let me know if you agree or disagree but I literally re-watched it multiple times and I found that Tiana is very pleasant and humble as a human but then for some reason, once she becomes a frog (and right before becoming a frog when talking to Naveen) she becomes really rude and impatient. It's like she becomes a completely different person. When she was human, she didn't hardly talk back to anyone or talk down to anyone. She gave helpful advice and had good customer service skills with her customers at the restaurant and was a stellar waitress. However, once she meets Naveen she becomes incredibly impulsive and somewhat violent. When she becomes a frog, she gets downright mean and nasty several times without being provoked. I think the writers really screwed up making her so nice as a human and mean as a frog because Naveen's personality didn't seem to change at all just by becoming a frog. I think it was bad, confused writing about Tiana. Also later in the film as a frog, she sort of flip flops back and forth between the better person she started off as and the meaner person she has become over the course of the film. I think they wanted to make her more mean as a human so that love cured/changed that for her but for whatever reason didn't start writing her that mean until the frog scenes which just made things confusing. In the end, Tiana did get both Naveen and the restaurant but she had actually already earned the restaurant in the beginning if it had not been for whoever it was (presumably Facilier though NEVER explained why) buying the restaurant out from under her nose. I think Naveen's love was supposed to transform her and him both but I think they did a better job with Naveen's transformation than Tiana's as she had no distinct beginning and end personality.
I agree with you about other DPs not apologizing though. Belle doesn't apologize to Beast but she does thank him for saving her life, is the first to fold in their stubborn argument and tends to his wounds so in that act I must say that actions speak louder than words. Jasmine doesn't apologize for running away because she got caught and never wanted to come back, in my opinion, though I do believe she greatly owed her father an apology. Problem is you cant expect someone to apologize for something they don't actually feel bad for and she is too self-absorbed to care about the worry that she put her father through. I completely agree with you about Elsa not giving any kind of real apology as an adult though again, as a child she was completely and emphatically apologetic so that could have to do with how her parents changed everything. (I think they were horrible parents.)
I found Brave to be one of the absolute most boring Disney Princess films as I hated having to get through all that you described, the power bidding war between mother and daughter, before I could get to the better parts of the film. I think the message in Brave was good overall but horrible for children. Children are not mature enough to discern between what they feel is right and what actually is right and my biggest beef with Brave is that I think it sends a rebellious message to children against their parents which only brings about tension in the home. Adults and perhaps teenagers will understand the nuances of "arranged marriage" and that it takes place in a different time and place but I think the overall message that you should "always be so adamant in your beliefs against anyone, even parents" at such a young age of confusion, immaturity, transformation, learning and growth is just harmful. I cant tell you how often it is that kids grow up, finally start a family and have children of their own and then go back to the parents because they realize "Wow I thought you were so wrong and harsh growing up but now that I'm older and have kids, I realize you weren't so wrong and you were just doing everything you could so I can be successful like I am and pass that onto my children." Most people will never experience something quite as extreme as "forced arranged marriage" like Merida so they'll get rebellious over not eating their vegetables or having a curfew or something else very silly because of how they saw Merida being so "championed" for being "rebellious" instead of seeing her as making a necessary change based on morals not just self-centered desires.
I don't think Charlotte was that nice but I do think she would've been far nicer had she not been so over-spoiled by her father growing up. Unfortunately her father spoiled her past the point of social decency which is why she's so rude to everyone, especially her own father the most despite him giving her everything she's ever wanted to the best of his ability. But hey, when you spoil someone growing up, you make them ungrateful and often rude, because they don't understand what it means and takes to put all of the hard work in to earn something so I blame her father more than I blame her. Poor guy didn't have Charlotte's mother around to help balance that out.
I strongly disagree with you about Pocahontas having a "real life" ending because in "real life" she did get on a boat and go to England. So it's actually the opposite of "real life" since she was a "real life" person and they got her "real life" ending wrong. That was a Disney fail. I don't agree with you that people who don't like that movie don't like it because of it's "real ending" but rather it's "fake forced ending".
I see Elsa as a coward too but I largely blame her father. The trolls told them she should learn how to control her powers but her father told her to conceal them instead. She was just being a good girl and listening to her father who she should be able to trust but he let her down by giving her horrible advice. Then he died and left her alone with nothing but his horrible advice.
I think a lot of princesses have less characterization than Ariel. Belle has some, sure, but she is not the main character in B and the B. The Beast is the main protagonist of the film, not Belle. Belle is like Jasmine. Both are bystanders to the plot, and they are not exactly active heroines. Mulan drives the plot in her movie. Ariel drives the plot in her movie. Poca drives some of the plot in her movie. Ariel made choices, and repented of them by having to face Ursula. All of Ariel's actions in the last battle showed just how sorry she was for "ever" having decided to want to be a human! Ariel may have loved Eric a good deal, but-- it had blown up in her face! So Ariel "chose" to remain a mermaid forever at the end. That's why we see her sitting on a rock, melancholy, and mulling over her wrongs. She's going to stay a mermaid. It's Triton who thinks he sees "maturity" in Ariel...Triton sees that Ariel was willing to die to save Atlantica and everyone who lived in their kingdom... This is something I see, too. But that's because I watch Ariel's facial expressions, and her actions, not just the occasional words that are coming out of her mouth all of the time.
As for the other things you've said, I don't know if I agree or disagree on them completely. I did dislike the screenwriting for TPATF. I disliked the ending where Tiana wins the "entire jackpot" in particular. The screenwriting is why Tiana is so uncharacteristically nasty in my opinion. Spoiled as she may be, I do find Lottie "to come off as way sweeter overall" than Tiana is.
I don't know that Merida is teaching anybody "to be rebellious." But I do prefer Ariel's version of trading in her fin for legs and "being away" from her abusive father, to Merida "actively feeding a cake to her mother to change her mother's mental thought patterns." At least, when Ariel disagreed with Triton, she simply distanced herself. Ariel did not attempt to change her father's mind for him.
Pocahontas never ended up with John Smith in the Disney movie, did she? That was BECAUSE Poca did not marry John Smith in real life. Disney DID KEEP the historical accuracy right, even if they "threw in a romance that was never possible." Poca and John knew each other as friends, perhaps. And even in the Disney version, as was in real life-- Poca marries John Rolfe. I fail to see how that ending is bad. That ending is "the real ending" to the real story.
Somewhere among my overriding disgust for Frozen, I feel pity for Elsa and Anna, because their parents and the trolls made everything in their lives worse for them. Literally.
But I do heartily disagree that Ariel was not sorry for what she had done, and does not "give enough of a LONG apology" as everyone else claims around here. I don't think this IS NECESSARY, because the context of the very film itself shows the audience that Ariel was repentant, just as Poca is, and Mulan is. The movie shows me an Ariel that is fighting to save Atlantica, and it also shows me a mermaid who was prepared to die for her mistakes and give up her dreams forever.
wavesurf: Well first of all let me just clarify that I would not include Merida in my "actions speak louder than words" argument, I just thought her apology was verbally the most respectful and genuine and not light-hearted or forced. I would say the actions speak louder in words with Belle and Pocahontas though. Just so you understand where I am coming from. :)
That being said, I don't think Ariel's actions in battling Ursula were super commendable similar to the fact that I don't think Merida's actions in battling Mor'du were super commendable either. Sure, it's cool and makes for a great film but I don't find it super commendable when someone forces a problem but then gets involved in the solution as I find that to be more basic, decent and proper since they caused the problem. I don't see Ariel or Merida showing their repentant nature in battling their villains because to me, that's just plain survivor skills since both those DPs are being attacked and having their lives threatened by the villains. They're in an "eat or be eaten" situation which to me, doesn't have much to do with repentance.
I think arguments made for Ariel and Merida are often just bandaged excuses for problems that they brought onto themselves and others. Sure, Ariel didn't know her father might be taken in her place and Merida didn't know the spell would turn her mother into a bear but they both made deals with the devil in order to cheat life and manipulate those around them. That's why I don't find it to be super commendable that they then change their mind/attitudes/behavior once other people get involved. I think it is somewhat commendable as they could always cower away but I just don't find it to be anything extraordinary or great about them, just decent and proper change. An act of maturity, if you will.
I'm sorry but I don't consider a "face" to be an action. A "face" to me does far less than even words. To me, a "face" is a self-centered expression about something wihtout actually doing anything about it so I wouldn't see that as an act of repentance at all. She's an emotional girl so I'd expect her to make faces all the time, like she does. I'd hope she would mature and grow out of that at some point though. She was kind of a distraction for Ursula, I guess, but again she was facing the problem that she invited.
"How many Disney princesses are prepared to die for a bad decision they've made?" Well... I think that's a bit subjective depending on how you see things. Belle was willing to die for the decision of taking her father's place. She had no idea what the Beast would do to her. I personally think it was a bad decision of hers to take her father's place because I believe she should've went back to town for help since she now knew the route and location of her father. That would've killed the film though. :) I agree with you about Pocahontas and Mulan though. I know you don't like Tiana but she was prepared to die with Dr. Facilier as she knew he was attacking her to kill yet she then defeated him. She had made the bad mistake of pretending to be a princess and kissing the frog. Then she was willing to pay for it similar to Ariel, Pocahontas, Mulan and Merida as well. Same with Anna except far more sacrificial because she didn't really make as much of a mistake as the other DPs. She did feel guilty and feel at fault for making Elsa run away though and did sacrifice her life for Elsa so I think she deserves to be in that group even more so than all of the others.
Perhaps you can explain to me what you mean by characterization so that I might be able to fully understand what your point is? I don't want to get confused and I want to show you the respect of staying relevant and accurate. I'm not quite sure exactly what you mean by characterization so I'd like to know directly from you, if you don't mind.
I dont really think I agree with you that Ariel has so much more characterization, I think she's just more outspoken and vocal about all of her feelings and thoughts than the others. I dont believe a character has to be the main character for proper characterization at all. I would definitely not call Belle "inactive" since she is very active in her film. She goes on her own accord to find her father when his horse comes back with out him, she proactively sacrifices herself for her father's place on her own accord, she runs away on her own accord, seeks out and rescues her father on her own accord and even goes back to save the beast on her own accord. I also don't agree with you at all that the "beast is the protagonist of the film, not Belle". I'm not quite sure how you see it that way? We hear the legend of the beast first but the first character we meet is Belle. We follow her on a normal day, hear about her worries and dreams to her father and follow her journey to rescue the father. We see more aspects of Belle's life than the Beast or anyone else's. I'm shocked that you could see her as the same as Jasmine when Belle was far more central in her film than Jasmine was. Belle drives the plot in her movie too, there are just a great usage of other characters as well. I think that movie has great characterization for all of it's characters and not just the DP or DP & Prince Charming. I think that's part of why that film is so commendable and classic already. I would make the same argument with Pocahontas. I don't think side characters take away as much from the DPs as it seems to me that you do think that way but correct me if I am misunderstanding you.
I dont believe Ariel "chose" to remain a mermaid at all, I think she just "settled" for it after what happened to Ursula. I dont find that action to be super commendable at all. She played with fire, got burnt and didnt want to play with matches again. I more commend her father for changing her in that moment and making her dreams come true. I also don't think Triton saw "maturity" in Ariel but rather "true love". I think he realized that they loved each other and since he knew what it was like to lose his love, Queen Athena, he couldn't bare to do that to his daughter so he changed her so she could embrace her true love in Eric.
I don't find Charlotte to come off overall sweeter than Tiana because she is far too rude, self-absorbed and inconsiderate. She constantly cuts people off, ignores them when they are talking, is very aggressive with others, etc. The way she treated that guy at the dance was just horrible. She led him on by telling him "later" and then crushed him nastily by saying "later really meant not ever". I thought that was incredibly cold and ugly behavior. I also find her to be very superficial, prejudice and shallow. She treated that guy like that because he wasn't a prince and treated who she thought the prince was, like a king, because she just wanted his title. Although Tiana had her flaws, at least she didn't think she was better than everyone else like Charlotte had grown up to believe. Yes Tiana believed she was better than Naveen but nobody else. I think spoiled is just one of many of Charlotte's very negative and anti-social traits.
I think Merida does teach small children that it's "cool to be rebellious". I think her image portrays that in every way. I dont think small children are mature enough to pick up on the nuances as I mentioned before. I think those parents who show Brave to their young children will ultimately have problems with their children and later in life have to explain why they aren't changing and folding like Elinor did.
Ariel's father was not abusive at all in any way shape or form. I say that sternly because I have actualy been abused by parents and I find it cruel and extreme to label Triton that way. He was not even 1% abusive. He has his faults but I strongly disagree with "abusive". He doesnt abuse her at all. She has ultimate freedom to do what she wants. He never hits her, neglects her, starves her, severely punishes her and hardly limits her or forces her into things she doesn't like/want. Destroying her grotto might have been extreme or overdone but it was NOT abusive at all. I also think Ariel did try to speak to her father more than Merida tried to speak to her mother but Triton lost his only beloved wife to humans and wasn't as open to hearing that they were "good" people. Triton is very similar to Pocahontas' dad Chief Powhatan who you must find to be ultra-abusive if you think Triton is abusive. Chief Powhatan was going to force his daughter to marry a man who actually would've physically abused Pocahontas if she ever upset him whereas Triton wasn't trying to force Ariel into anything. (Come to think of it, you must also find Jasmine's dad, Mulan's parents and Merida's parents to all be abusive as well.) I'm SHOCKED that you would go as far as to label someone like Triton as abusive, truly. I don't mean to disrespect you, I am just honestly shocked and as someone who has been abused, I think you are using extreme language that is not accurate. That's just my opinion and I hope you don't find it disrespectful because I don't mean it that way. My words might just sound more passionate because it's more relatable and real to me than most other people. The "abusive" parents in the DPs are: Evil Queen Grimhilde, Lady Tremaine & Mother Gothel. Only.
Disney did not keep the historical accuracy right, I'm sorry. Pocahontas never dated Smith in the first place so Disney was wrong from the very get-go. Keeping historical accuracy would have been to not have them date in the first place. When Pocahontas saw John Smith in England, she told him that he was like a "father" to her. They never once dated, she saw him as a wise elder. It's really gross that Disney depicted them otherwise, actually. Also in the Disney version of Pocahontas 2, not the original which is a big difference to majority of Disney friends, they still didn't get the "real ending" right because John Rolfe left to England from Virginia with Pocahontas, not the other way around. They didn't meet in England so the sequel was historically inaccurate throughout as well.
I dont believe the trolls made everything in Elsa & Anna's lives worse at all because they saved Anna as a child. I only belive the parents royally screwed them.
I never said Ariel was not sorry for what she had done so I'm not quite sure where you are getting that from? I only said that I would've loved a more heart-felt apology from her to her father for all the trouble she caused since the only apology we did see was the "help me" one when Ursula captured her and Triton had been alerted by Sebastian. I also don't know what you mean about "everyone else claims around here" that Ariel didn't "give enough of a long apology". Not sure where you are reading that from? What I read and agreed with here was "I wish that we would have seen Ariel confronting her dad at the end after all the drama and really giving a deeper apology. That would have been really sweet, and would have added to Ariel's character in a better way." I don't really see that as "everyone around here claiming her apology wasn't long enough".
Pohawatan never yells at Pocahontas. Fa Zhou yells at Mulan one time, but never destroys anything she holds dear. Grimhilde, Lady Tremaine, and Mother Gothel are abusive as well, just like King Triton. They ALL demean their victims through using their tongues and their actions.
Okay. Since you don't believe "nonverbal cues" matter at all, as a sign of repentance...then I have nothing else to say, because I thoroughly disagree with that.
Belle doesn't do enough in her own movie. First she's snobby because she feels "isolated by the town" and so she "hides out with her books" and simply WAITS for her dad's invention to work--- hoping that that will give her a new life. I wish Belle went after that new life herself. She just complains about not having anything exciting to do. Then when she takes her father's place in the beast's castle, she starts whining again--- about how it's all unfair---- a "choice" she made, mind you! No one forced her to take her father's place as prisoner. She could have just left her father to die. But then she turns into a milk-toast, right after she has made the choice to stay with the beast. I didn't think highly of her for that!
Then she pokes around in the West Wing right after the Beast expressly tells her not to. And because she's caught "red-handed" she flees into the woods, where--- if the beast had not followed---- she would most certainly have been mauled to death by wolves.
Let's also not forget that Belle IS THE REASON that Gaston EVEN KNOWS about the beast and the castle at all... because she goes around waving that mirror in front of everybody. Sure, they have her father. But Maurice's story about the Beast and the castle wasn't being taken seriously by Gaston and the townspeople. No, Belle had to make them BELIEVE it was true, and when they did--- all it did was foment a riot and led to them overrunning the beast's castle... which of course, Belle is ENTIRELY responsible for because of her BIG MOUTH. Just like in Ariel's case, when Eric comes to the rescue---- the beast also comes to the rescue, and "corrects" the problem Belle BROUGHT TO HIM. So I do FAIL to see how Belle is a better character than Ariel... because she made a gargantuan mistake, just like Ariel did. However, in each case, the princes are able to handle and diffuse the bad situations started by each princess.
I'm not going to rehearse my points again, since you just disagreed with all of them.
As for this--> "I wish that we would have seen Ariel confronting her dad at the end after all the drama and really giving a deeper apology. That would have been really sweet, and would have added to Ariel's character in a better way." Oh, really? Ariel does not have to give a longer, more heart-felt, deeper apology to her father, her FORMER ABUSER. Would you apologize to a person who abused you??? I'd venture...NO. So that's ridiculous!! BOTH father and daughter are at fault for creating the dynamic that Ursula just exploited. It is not all Ariel's fault for what occurred!!!!! But people around here claiming Ariel needs to keep on apologizing to her dad--- are acting like Ariel single-handedly created the problem. Which is a lie. Triton is just as responsible for what happened as Ariel is. Belle is just as responsible for bringing "the mob" to the castle, as the beast is for "his bad temper."
It's not that I feel insulted, it's just that I feel DISGUSTED when people accept the EXACT SAME FLAWS in other princesses that they continually point out and condemn in Ariel. Ariel created a problem? Well, guess what. So did Belle and lots of other girls in the lineup. Stop picking on Ariel and demanding more of an apology from her. That's hypocritical ( because longer, heartfelt deeper apologies are not being equally demanded from all the other princesses. The other princesses did wrong, just as much as Ariel did. They deserve to be GIVING LONGER, HEARTFELT, DEEPER APOLOGIES to the characters that they offended). But they aren't doing that, are they? Nope. And all that is happening is the same criticism is being leveled at only one princess-- Ariel. Well, I HEREBY DIRECT IT and DEMAND A LONGER, HEARTFELT, DEEPER APOLOGY from Belle, from Jasmine, from Pocahontas, from Mulan, from Tiana, from Rapunzel, from Merida, from Anna, and from Elsa for CAUSING all of the respective problems in their movies!! I WANT an apology from all of them!!!! (Too bad, haha, I won't get it). I greatly dislike hypocrisy. And this is definitely what this is.
I also don't like parts of the ending of Frozen, though that's more to do with the fact that I don't like entire chunks of Frozen throughout the entire thing.
I find it both a shame and privilege that you would be able to think that getting yelled at for something you repeatedly did wrong and being told repeatedly not to do could ever be considered as abuse in any form. I hope you realize that would never stand in a court of law. Also I actually was verbally abused and like I said, Triton isn't even 1% abusive. It's a luxury if you think he's abusive, not a reality. Let me tell you what real verbal abuse is. Real verbal abuse is something like this: "Your mother is a whore so you're going to grow up and be a whore just like her." THAT is verbal abuse. Something that is A) extreme and B) undeserved and Triton doesn't qualify for either of those things, sorry. :) Losing your temper because your daughter literally sneaks out to a dangerous place where your wife had been killed before isn't considered "abusive" in the real world. It's considered appropriate. He doesn't yell at his daughter whenever they're in the same room, you should re-watch the film since you don't seem to remember it very well. He only yells at her because she ditched the ceremony that was in front of the entire kingdom, then went to the surface after being told not to, then ran away again to the surface after being told not to and making contact with a human after being told the same day not to. Yes, he does break her things on purpose because she kept disobeying him on purpose AND he just found out that she had been secretly breaking his rules and collecting all of those things against his permission and without his knowledge. If you stole things from a store, a good parent makes you take them back or if you have weapons, good parents get rid of them. This is what he was doing. Trying to be a responsible parent and he considered these to be "bad things" which she really did get behind his back and while it may have been an extreme reaction, it was literally no where even near the parking lot of abusive. It may have been "bad form" as you say, that is debatable since she collected those items without permission but his reaction was certainly not abusive in any form, shape, way or manner etc.
"Powhatan never yells at Pocahontas." No, he was just going to sell her to a warrior for marriage whether Pocahontas said yes or no. Also that warrior would have permission to actually be physically abusive to Pocahontas if she ever did anything he didn't like but her father was going to make her marry him anyways. Interesting you consider that to not be as bad as being yelled at for something you did wrong. "Fa Zhou yells at Mulan one time, but never destroys anything she holds dear." I'm sorry but what is your point here? Mulan doesn't repeatedly disobey her father like Ariel so it's not the same. He still yelled at her just for showing concern about his decisions. I don't understand your distinction. Honestly, I'm not insulted by the fact that you think Grimhilde, Lady Tremaine, and Mother Gothel are "just as abusive as King Triton" but I do think overall that your opinion is insulting. I would've traded my abusive parents in for Triton any day because he is so loving, caring, protective and devoted. Triton doesn't demean anyone. You should really look up abuse and all of those things because you're just not accurate in this issue at all.
I never once said "I don't believe in 'nonverbal cues' at all" so I'm not sure where you got that from?
I understand that's your opinion about Belle and obviously I completely disagree. She talked to her father about feeling misunderstood and it's interesting that you can blame that on her. It's also interesting that you would condone her for being so loyal to her father and not wanting to leave him on his own. While I understand that you feel maybe she should've left him alone to die, I can understand why she didn't do more to leave him and was hoping he'd find success so she wouldn't have to worry about him the rest of her life. I don't remember her ever once complaining about "not having anything exciting to do", I just remember her having bigger dreams of knowledge and travel than the rest of her town which most likely comes from her father and I hope you remember she's not from that town anyways and doesn't share their mindsets and values. Also she wasn't whining about her choice being unfair, perhaps you should re-watch this film as well? She complains it's not fair that she "didn't get a chance to say goodbye" after she offered to take his place which is understandable to me. :) I agree she should not have gone into the West Wing when she wasn't supposed to and she never apologized for it. I also agree that if Beast hadn't saved her life, she'd be dead. I didn't forget that Gaston found out about the beast by Maurice and not Belle but I think you did. :) Maurice went into the tavern after Belle took his place and spoke of "the beast" which triggered Gaston's evil plans. Then he was going to lock up Maurice in an asylum where they'd do experiments on him etc. and Belle didn't want to stand for that. The reason Belle showed Gaston what the beast looked like, was to prove that her father wasn't insane. Unless of course you believe Belle should've given into the peer pressure and married Gaston instead? Also Belle doesn't have a big mouth but I think you either forgot many details or misinterpreted that entire sequence of events. :)
I'm not going to tell you how you should rank Ariel and Belle against each other as that is completely your choice. If you don't see why many people see Belle as more virtuous or having stronger moral character than Ariel then perhaps you should re-watch both films to re-familiarize yourself with the characters and events. :)
I wish I could do a better job at helping you understand that I think you are taking the Ariel apology completely out of context. I already tried to tell you that it was just something that would've been nice but you don't seem to understand. Would I apologize to a person who abused me? No. Would I apologize to Triton for repeatedly disobeying him, running away and putting him in a predicament with his arch nemesis Ursula? You bet I would, absolutely, because he deserves it. Triton is nowhere near responsible for what happened as Ariel. Belle is also not as responsible for bringing the mob as Beast's bad temper and I sincerely see no connection there. I'm sorry that you feel like someone is picking on Ariel or demanding more of an apology from her and I honestly don't know why you feel that way or where you are getting that from as I already tried to explain the context to you. I hope you realize that you are the only person I see here demanding any apology from anyone.
You are a mean spirited person who refuses to respect others opinions. You expect others to here you out on your childish rants, but you show nobody the slightest hint of respect for their opinions. Not to mention that you do so in such a condescending way, and you consistently shove your opinions in others faces. It's disgusting watching you, a grown adult, throw temper tantrums when people don't agree with your opinions. Time after time calling people, "hypocrites" is something I can only imagine a five year old doing. Do you even know what the definition of hypocrite is? It's not hypocritical to not see Ariel in the same way that you do, and you make your own points invalid because Ariel is not in the slightest bit unpopular. Everyone adores Ariel, but as soon as someone has a complaint about her character you flip shit.
By the way, SO much that you have said is bullshit that you believe out of biased towards your favorite DP's. Like constantly putting down other DP's to make Ariel seem like the queen of the DP lineup, for instance. If you think putting down other DP's and basically saying that, "Ariel shouldn't ever be critisized because _ DP does _" makes your arguments stronger, you should rethink all your comments.
I don't want to have a discussion about this with you @wavesurf because I already know the formula for what your reply is going to look like, and I'm just telling you from an outsiders perspective that your personality from these rants of yours make you come off as insufferable.
মতামত দিতে ফ্যানপপে প্রবেশ করুন বা যোগ দিন